Centering Culture & Relationships as Arts Entrepreneurs

Marianne Combs:

Welcome to Filling the Well, a podcast created to nourish, provoke, and inspire artists and arts leaders. I’m independent journalist Marianne Combs.

Leah Lemm:

And I’m Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe and community stories sharer. On Filling the Well we’re talking to indigenous culture bearers as well as creatives living and working in rural areas about the challenges they face and the particular joys of making art far from the city. It’s nice to be with you again, Marianne, as always.

Marianne Combs:

And it’s so nice to be back with you, Leah, in what I think is going to be a really fabulous episode. It’s our last in our series of five, and I’m really excited to hear from the guests that you spoke with.

Leah Lemm:

Yes, me too. I am happy to share brilliant voices again today on a topic I’m super excited about entrepreneurship, particularly from the perspectives of native artist entrepreneurs. We have two folks on today, Khayman Goodsky and Chi Ma’iingan, and they’re both Ojibwe artists. Chi Ma’iingan’s a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. He lives an Ojibwe seasonal lifestyle on the reservation with his wife and five children. He has a business called Round Lake Traditions, which does Ojibwe applique art. He’s got t-shirts and regalia and leather work and all kinds of stuff, so I’m really excited to talk with him a bit later. But first, we’ll hear from Khayman Goodsky and we sat down at the American Indian Community Housing Organization in Duluth.

Khayman Goodsky:

My name is Khayman Goodsky. I’m from the Bois Forte Band of Ojibwe, and well, I’m an Ojibwe two-spirit creative artist living in Duluth, Minnesota.

Leah Lemm:

Khayman is the co-coordinator at Indigenous First Art & Gift Shop at the American Indian Community Housing Organization, and she started pursuing DIY filmmaking in her Freshman year of college after artist, Jonathan Thunder mentored her in animation and creative economy. Khayman proceeded to make several short films collaborating with other indigenous actors, filmmakers, and musicians to bring her own stories to life. Her work contains key values and teachings from her Ojibwe culture mixed in with experimental art, and a bunch of her work has actually been displayed in the Duluth Superior Film Festival and other local film festivals.

Khayman Goodsky:

I became an entrepreneur, I think from a very young age. I didn’t always have the skill sets I needed to get hired for jobs, but the way that I found I could make money was through bead work, funny enough. So I sold a lot of baby beaded moccasins and even adult beaded moccasins to go on trips or have the opportunities that other young kids could have through my bead work. And I found through there it just kind of grew until people were asking me to do commission work and then they were asking, “Oh, do you know anywhere where I could get baby onesies that are affordable and made by indigenous people?” And I was like, “No, I don’t, but why don’t I just make some?”

So then I started making my own and I started selling them through the AICHO Indigenous First Gift Shop, and then through myself, I would just take orders like, “Oh, you need this size? I have this.” So that’s how that really became. But I found that a lot of the friends and people that I work with have these amazing creative skills, but they don’t have the qualifications, either the education or the time or the resources that they need to really put that to their sole career.

So a lot of us are doing that as a side gig, and that’s really what we want to be doing. But I’m grateful to be working in a position where I can help other people explore those opportunities because I feel like college and having those, “Well, I did this for seven years,” is really quite a barrier when it comes to being a successful entrepreneur.

Leah Lemm:

So it sounds like you heard a demand for an item and then followed through. I know there’s such cute stuff when it comes to baby things that I’d imagined that they sold pretty well. How did your baby onesies sell?

Khayman Goodsky:

I think they sold pretty good. I only have a couple left and I haven’t restocked, but every time I see people, they’re always asking me, “Oh, do you have onesies?” I just think there is a fine line between making art and making art affordable, and as indigenous creative people, I think we need to kind of shoulder that responsibility, but also the fact like I am a single parent, so how do I make enough money off of my art to support me and my family?

So there’s a lot of different factors that come into play, but eventually I would love to restock my onesies and come up with even different designs and maybe even going back to doing older things I did. We used to make baby cloaks and toddler cloaks, like little animal stuff with ears, and I kind of miss that. I miss having the … I feel like I get so wrapped up in helping other people that sometimes it’s nice to take a step and focus on the creative things that I want to do.

Leah Lemm:

Can you give me a rundown of all the things you like to do creatively?

Khayman Goodsky:

I love to make DIY films, but I have this rule where I pay everyone who helps make the film come to life, whether that’s actors, musicians, set designers, my PAs, they’re big help and people who come to work the camera for me even. So I like to pay people who help that come to life, my filmmaking, but I also love doing bead work and baby moccasins and onesies. I love creating just outfits. I’ve been on this jean jacket sewing patches on for a kick, and I’ve made a couple for my friend’s kids for Christmas and things like that.

I went through this whole thing where I was bleaching shirts with fun designs and things like that. I was helping my sibling run their business for a little bit just on the creative side of social media and photo shoots and things like that. So I don’t know, I’m kind of all over the place I guess when it comes to the things I do, but I love it. Anything I can do that I can put my heart and soul into that other people enjoy, I think that’s really cool.

Leah Lemm:

Would you describe then how you bring in revenue from those and endeavors? What sort of income streams are you going for?

Khayman Goodsky:

I do apply for a lot of grants. Most of the time I don’t get them because I am still considered inexperienced and my lack of formal education is kind of, people don’t really like that. So when I say I’m a DIY filmmaker, they’re like, “Oh, okay, so no formal education.” So I do apply for grants and I have been really fortunate to get some, and that has been helping my career a lot.

But I do other gigs, otherwise I work a full-time job. But I find most of the time I go out and do speaking roles and things like that, I put that money aside for my projects. As someone, a self-taught business person I don’t have the necessary funds to always do the things I want. So it’s nice when people come and they ask me to do things and then suddenly I have a little bit of extra cash to put towards this film project or to put towards onesies or things like that.

Leah Lemm:

Khayman mentions that not having a formal education from a mainstream perspective creates a bias against her work.

Khayman Goodsky:

I have experienced a lot of classism and a lot of racism, especially when it comes to saying how I got started as a filmmaker. It was very much, I was interning for Jonathan Thunder. I didn’t have a formal education in editing or doing voice audio editing, and he just taught me on the spot and I was like, “Oh, so I click this and then I do this and then I make sure it matches.” I didn’t need to go to school to do that. It was a very quick lesson, and I hope that the business is changing because a lot of people are learning education on YouTube. Like Everything Everywhere All At Once, all of their editors were self-taught from YouTube. And I think that’s so beautiful because not a lot of us have the resources to go to college or even it’s a lot to stick in a class for eight months.

And sometimes I dropped out of art school because I wasn’t fast enough at learning things. So when you are self-taught you can kind of take things at your own speed, which I really like. But when I go to film festivals and I’m explaining how my film came to be, I get a lot of weird reactions from people who did go to film school at prestigious colleges because it’s different when I come in and I’m like, “Oh, I learned this from YouTube,” or, “I learned from self studying on my own.” And the people that I use, my actors, they’ve never acted before. And it’s just like we had this working, beautiful relationship that made this film come to life. And I see other people who are like, “Well, I hired so-and-so who went to acting school for how many years.”

And I’m like, “That’s beautiful. That’s really great. But not all of us can take the same road.” And I think that’s so great about art and entrepreneurship is like we can still achieve the same goal, but we don’t all have to take the same road. And I think that’s really cool. I think more people need to make room for people who haven’t had the same opportunities or the same chances that they have. I don’t want to say it’s pure luck, but a lot of luck has been in the right place at the right time, having the right people to support me.

Leah Lemm:

What do you think those in arts leadership can do to help support entrepreneurs with a different background than the usual arts degree?

Khayman Goodsky:

Well, I think people in leadership and who are kind of achieved in the arts field, I think they have years of knowledge and experience that should be passed along and it should be open to everyone. You know what I mean? You should be taking a chance and saying, “Well, this person may not be as well-developed as somebody else who did go to art school, but if you look for that talent and if they have that drive, why shouldn’t you be spending that opportunity to take them under your wing?”

I think that’s really what amazes me is that I had these amazing people in my life who did that, who took a chance on me. And because of that, I am way off happier in my life than I was when I was working at this greasy diner. I had somebody say, “Yes, I will help you and I will teach you what you need to learn about this field.”

And I was like, “Okay, great. So I just have to dedicate some of my time to go and learn from you and that’s all you’re asking for?” And he said, “Yeah, and I’ll pay you,” and that was amazing. That was world changing. Do you know how beautiful this art world could be if we just took more chances and if we didn’t close as many doors as we did? I think that’s so fascinating is because there’s so many different fields and there just needs to be someone out there to say, “Hey, you got that spark, kid, can I help you?” Just think about how beautiful the world could be, I guess, and more, I don’t know, colorful.

Leah Lemm:

Having somebody see that in you, see that ability in you, that talent, somebody like Jonathan Thunder to mentor, to help, to support your art is so important. And it brings up the subject of art inclusion versus art gate keeping.

Marianne Combs:

Oh yeah, I have a lot of feelings about this. Having covered the arts for so many years and witnessing so many barriers to entry when it comes to being a validated artist in the art world, there’s a sense that you have to go through a certain school and you have to get a certain education or otherwise you have to make your way in as an outsider artist. And that becomes its own sort of identity thing. But this notion of if you want to do it, you have to go on a certain pathway or else you’re not going to get there.

I feel like we’re in an era where we’re increasingly recognizing those barriers to access and participation, and there is work being done to take them down, but we’re certainly not there yet. That’s why those individual relationships with mentors is just crucially important for an individual’s opportunity to succeed in a career and to do an art that they love, which when you think about people practicing art, you would think there shouldn’t be barriers to access for a person to practice art.

Leah Lemm:

Absolutely. And speaking of barriers, Khayman also works to help reduce barriers for native artists through her work at the Indigenous First Art & Gift Shop at the American Indian Community Housing Organization.

Khayman Goodsky:

I’m the co-coordinator, so I kind of help with working with the artist and seeing what they’re up to. Sometimes they’ll bring stuff in and they’ll be like, “Can we sell this? Can we do this on commission?” We work with a lot of painters, jewelry makers, fashion designers, health and beauty products, food products, books, just all kinds of mediums in our shop. And because of that, we kind of have a reputation for helping starting indigenous and BIPOC careers.

One of our jewelry artists, she was making bead work on the side when she first started, and then her earrings took off and now she does it as a full-time business. She’s able to support herself and her family through her art, which is really, we should be doing that for all artists. And so we’ll get a lot of new artists who come in and they need help.

They’re first time beaders or painters. They don’t often have the right supplies. I think part of my job is that I’ve taken on, “Your stuff is really good. What can we do to help you? What do you need?” And we’ve had a lot of entrepreneurs, especially this year because my co-coordinator and I, we’re going to indigenous fashion shows, indigenous food conferences, a lot of exciting areas and sometimes we meet people and they don’t know what they’re doing, so we just say, “Hey, your stuff is really great. Have you tried doing this? Or have you tried reaching out? Have you tried boosting your social media?”

They’ll come in and sometimes we work with them if they’re able and they’re willing to work with us. So we help them say, “This is how you can increase this,” or, “If you just use this maybe instead of Sharpies, that might go over a little better.” So we have a lot of new entrepreneurs and it’s really exciting to see the different kinds of things that they’re making. And we had somebody come in and we bought a lot of her items and she’s able to take her son to his first ever concert, which is really great.

Leah Lemm:

How would you recommend a person prepare to become an entrepreneur?

Khayman Goodsky:

I would recommend that person really taking the time to think about, is this something I want to commit a lot of time and energy to? Because when you become an entrepreneur, you have to commit a little bit of yourself to that, and you have to be very dedicated with it and make that habit of, okay, so I may not have time every day, but Thursday from 6:00 to 8:00 I’m going to work on this. And as that grows, you just have to keep having that time, but also make sure that you have the time for yourself so you don’t get burnt out because it is a lot.

I would recommend doing a lot of research into what you’re wanting to do. Reach out to people, whether you’re an artist, an author, a fashion designer, research, and see what works well for other people and see if that will work well for you. The same cookie cutter isn’t going to work for everyone, but it’s best to have that knowledge before you go out and spend like $300 on fabric and materials that don’t mesh together. And just see if you have the support system because it is really nice to have a support system before you start being an entrepreneur. You’re going to need that.

Leah Lemm:

I know we talked about making sure that arts leadership is open to other paths into arts, but in general, even predominantly white organizations, how can organizations better support entrepreneurs and in particular native entrepreneurs?

Khayman Goodsky:

Yeah, I think art leadership should be really looking at people who are not fitting the box, people who are doing their own thing and they’re not fitting that cookie cutter thing. I think white organizations should be looking for indigenous and BIPOC and diverse artists because we do need the support. We deserve to be appreciated, celebrated, honored, and uplifted, and they need to make space for us. They need to make room, and they need to see and appreciate these wonderful artists out there doing their own thing and not being held back.

It does make a difference when you can make art and support your family. And I’m just going to say it again so people get the hint. It’s life changing, it’s world saving. It makes the place, art, a better place to be. The more diversity we have, the better. And so if you have the resources, go out there. Indigenous artists, BIPOC artists, we’re not that hard to find. It’s not that hard to do a little research and say, “Oh my God, this person is doing painted pottery,” or things like that. And I think with the world of social media, it’s so easy to find artists now. So there should be no reason why we shouldn’t be investing in these people.

Leah Lemm:

To go a little further, how can they make sure that they’re entering these relationships in the right way, in a good way?

Khayman Goodsky:

How to enter a relationship the right way? Hopefully with respect. Please don’t try to pigeonhole these artists into making what you think native or indigenous art is. We are free to explore the art mediums as we wish. Please don’t try to have indigenous artists make racist or cliched pieces of art. Let them do their own thing and respect that.

And if you are paying an indigenous person money, please make sure you’re paying the amount that you would for a non-indigenous person. Don’t try to underpay artists. I think that’s a large thing that we run into is we’re used to being underpaid and taking huge commissions out of our artwork that go back to the gallery and then we turn around and we see that’s not the same thing, particularly for non-indigenous artists. I feel like a lot of white artists get paid more for the same amount of effort that indigenous artists do.

Respect the artist’s time, their value, their creativeness and their background. The art world is changing, and I think people who have had longstanding positions in it and positions of power and of wealth and the resources that they have, just give younger artists a chance. People who haven’t started out the same way that you have started out. In 50 years, the art world is going to be vastly different than it is now and we just need to keep moving with the times and keep building our respectful relationships with new artists and providing them with the resources that they need and making sure that they feel valued.

Leah Lemm:

I love what Khayman Goodsky is saying. The art world is changing and hopefully the balance of power and wealth becomes a bit more even.

Marianne Combs:

Yeah, I love that notion of building respectful relationships with new artists and providing with them with the resources that they need. I mean, it’s basic relationships. This is what you do is you have meaningful relationships with each other and you help each other out.

Leah Lemm:

You’re listening to filling the Well, I’m Leah Lemm.

Marianne Combs:

And I’m Marianne Combs. Today we’re hearing from two artist entrepreneurs.

Leah Lemm:

Khayman Goodsky is from the Bois Forte Band, she’s a filmmaker and supports other native entrepreneurs at Indigenous First Art & Gift Shop right in the American Indian Community Housing Organization in Duluth. It’s such a cool place. They have so much great stuff there, art, clothing, stickers, coasters and some food, wild rice there.

Marianne Combs:

And so many of the artists there are just incredibly accomplished. It’s just a hotbed of artistic creativity.

Leah Lemm:

Absolutely. Our next artist entrepreneur works out of his home and he has a great setup on his property out on Fond du Lac.

Chi Ma’iingan:

My name is Chi Ma’iingan. I live on the Fond du Lac Reservation. I live in the Brookston community. I’ve been in the Brookston community here for at least 25 years, and I moved here from White Earth. My dad’s a White Earth Band member. My mom’s a Fond du Lac Band member. I set roots down here at Fond du Lac when I was a teenager, and this is where I’ve been since.

Leah Lemm:

Chi Ma’iingan has a pretty interesting story as to how he became an entrepreneur, and it seems a bit unlikely as he was in law enforcement for almost 20 years.

Marianne Combs:

Really?

Leah Lemm:

Yeah, Chi Ma’iingan explains that it was actually pretty good preparation for the necessary workload and creativity as a working artist.

Chi Ma’iingan:

I ended my career as the Chief of Police of Fond du Lac, and of course working as the Chief of Police I worked a lot with managing grants, managing budgets, purchasing and things like that. But I also was active in the community, but also active in the law enforcement community. And I was called upon a lot to give a lot of trainings and also to be keynote speakers at some events. And I would go to those events and I was kind of nervous when I would attend those, and what I found that helped with my nervousness is that I would add some of my own, we’ll say my identity, my own identity to when I would go speak. So I would maybe wear a bear claw necklace or something.

This is in a room full of law enforcement officers who it’s all western colonization, things like that. And it was to have a Native American male up there speaking about law enforcement in Indian country. And then it kind of progressed into, I would make my own neckties. I would put some my clan symbols and things like that on my neckties or else I would wear an applique shirt that I made. And wearing those garments, they put me at ease because it helped me identify with who I was. But also it was like an icebreaker wearing that stuff.

I’ve been sewing or doing arts and crafts my entire life growing up, and working in law enforcement, it was something that I was not able to do full-time and it was something that I didn’t do full-time, but I only guess let it know to my law enforcement community by doing those speaking engagements. Some other officers from, we’ll say other tribes would come through and be like, “Hey, can you do something like that for me? Can you get me a tie or can you get me a shirt?” And I’m like, “Absolutely.”

So I started kind of having a customer base already. People would come to me and ask me for these items, and kind of got out into the community that I was making these items and people started coming to me for ribbon skirts. People started coming to me for more ties, more applique shirts, and I would put them together for them. I also travel a lot on the Powwow Trail, and people would see my garments and ask me where I got those and I’d tell everybody. I’d make them myself. I’d make them for my family, and they would ask me for them.

Well, working full-time as a law enforcement officer, I wasn’t able to, I guess commit to that and say, “I don’t have enough time to get you something together.” But as time went on, I put in nearly 20 years in law enforcement and talking with my wife, and I was like, “I think it’s time for me to step back and do something else. I’m not feeling it every day when I wake up to go to work as a law enforcement officer or as the Chief of Police,” and I said, “I think it’s time for me to move on.” And she was like, “I support whatever you want to do.” And I’ve always talked about Round Lake traditions, and that’s if I ever started my own art company, that is what it would be called, was Round Lake Traditions. We’ll say the early spring of 2019, I woke up one morning and I said, “I’m going to do it. I’m going to commit myself fully to Round Lake Traditions, and that’s what I’m going to call it, and I’ll go from there.”

Leah Lemm:

So Chi Ma’iingan started Round Lake Traditions and got his start really by posting on social media and building a following. And he has great support from family and community to create his niche art.

Chi Ma’iingan:

For myself, I like to categorize myself in that old traditional work because all of my floral designs and my geometrical designs, they come from the old designs. So I don’t put a whole lot of contemporary work into that. I stick to that just because of how I was taught growing up, and that’s where that comes from. But there’s a space for all of us, for all of the artists that do this type of work.

That community too is very helpful for everybody. If we have some questions or anything like that, there’s some art groups that I belong to on Facebook, and it’ll go back and forth of, “Hey, who are you using for this? Who are you using for that?” And just like extra vendors or maybe people are making stuff for you or printing your clothing for you. Just information like that. So yeah, it’s a great community. It’s a strong community within the art community right now. And to lift each other up is phenomenal.

Leah Lemm:

You mentioned also your wife, your partner, and her being really supportive of you branching out, being an entrepreneur, and I know exactly how important that is. And I do want to take some time to maybe celebrate that, to talk about that a little bit, because that is key. Is there anything you want to expand on when it comes to her support?

Chi Ma’iingan:

Absolutely. And I was going to touch on this, I probably would’ve touched on it later anyway, but the growth of Round Lake traditions and also to have that support from your family, but not only that, your main cheerleader and the importance of that is you can actually put it in the words, because if you don’t have that support group behind you, it’s one of those things that lifts you up to continue on. And if that’s not there, we all know that being in the art field, you need to feed your soul, you need to feed your spirit. And if your spirit is not fed properly, you’re not going to be able to be successful or actually want to do the type of work.

To have somebody behind me pushing me on and saying, “Hey, what you’re doing is great,” but also to, I guess, take this journey with me hand in hand is … I’m beyond grateful for something like that, with her support. And honestly, I wouldn’t have as much success as I do if it wasn’t for her.

Leah Lemm:

Nice. And you mentioned partnerships. I mean, so your spouse is a huge partner when it comes to your work, and you also mentioned vendors and Facebook groups, social media groups where you kind of share ideas, share resources. Are there particular organizations or businesses that help you along the way that are big supporters of yours as well?

Chi Ma’iingan:

So when I first started, I worked with the UMD Economic Development Committee. I worked with them a lot when I first started as part of growing my business. They’re one of the main ones that helped me out a lot, and they still continue to today. If I have questions about tax information or questions about certain laws or things like that, I can go to them. They helped with the growth and we’ll say at the setting up building blocks for Round Lake Traditions, business plans, stuff like that. And what am I on right now? I bet you I’m on business plan number four. You start out with your first business plan and you get it off the ground and you’re finally there, and then you go on, you rewrite your business plan, COVID starts, you rewrite your business plan again because you need to, I guess, gear up for COVID or try to survive COVID.

I was very fortunate to be able to do that. And one reason why is because people weren’t going out shopping. So I would put a lot of my stuff online or my website, then people would order off of there. That kept me afloat, but now that COVID is done I’ll have to rewrite my business plan again to go from there. One of the questions you asked, is there other companies that help me? I used to source out all of my, we’ll say clothing. If I made my own promotional clothing, like Round Lake Traditions logo shirts, things like that. And I just started out with a small three, four T-shirt designs, and those did fairly well, but I’d have a different company print those off for me. And with all of the supply shortages the country was facing, my turnaround time for some of those things was three, four months down the road and I had to wait a long time.

What I did is I went to a trade show called Decorated Apparel Expo in Kansas City, and this was probably two years ago. And the reason why I went there is because I was looking at doing my own design work, doing my own t-shirt lines and clothing lines. And when I went down there and I was looking at all the equipment, I started to see how I could actually do all of this stuff in house.

So I bought my own heat press. I actually wrote a grant. I wrote a grant, I bought my own heat press. I brought my own vinyl cutter machine, laser cut machine. I applied for my wholesaler’s license, got my wholesaler’s license. So I started doing all of my own t-shirt lines and I started printing everything in house. So if I go vend at a powwow or some of the stuff that you see on my website, not only do I design it, but everything is also made in-house here at Round Lake Traditions.

I have my own print shop outside of my studio, so all my T-shirts go through my print shop, all my hoodies, all my sweatshirts, leggings, women’s leggings, things like that. They all come through here. I design them on my platform here on an iPad, and I’m able to get those designs there. Unlike a traditional screen printer who has limitation on how many colors they have, with the heat press that I use, I don’t have no design limitations. So if somebody wants to do gradient color changes on all of their shirts, I can achieve those gradient color changes, whereas you can’t achieve that as a screen printer. So yeah, four or five business plans into it already for Round Lake Traditions.

Leah Lemm:

Four or five business plans. I can only imagine. Can you tell me a little bit about the different ways in which you monetize your work? So I heard wholesaling or making the t-shirts, you have your own applique work that you do, and I’ve seen workshops come across social media. Can you tell me in your business plan, how do you make money? What are those income streams?

Chi Ma’iingan:

Yeah, so there’s many. We could talk about one. In my studio, I also, I rent out studio time to individuals who if they want to we’ll say, come in and learn how to make a ribbon skirt or make a belt or things like that. So I rent out studio time by the hour, so people can come to me. I let them tell me what they want to work on, and I’ll say, “Okay, we can probably do it in this many hours,” and if they can’t handle that many hours, they only do two or three, we do two or three. I let them dictate how many hours that we’re going to be working in. But also in that time, I make sure that they have enough working knowledge if they don’t finish our project, that they would be able to finish our project when they leave. But also, I’ll extend myself to organizations.

So if organizations want to hire me to come in and teach a class, I have an hourly rate for that also. That is one of my main income streams there is during the week I’ll travel around across Minnesota, Wisconsin and just teach, whether it’s moccasin making class, ribbon skirts, appliques, things like that. I also do rattles, drumsticks, almost any kind of Native American art you can think of. And that’s what people would ask me is, “What can we do?” And I was like, “What’s your timeframe?” And they’ll say, “We got two hours or three hours.” I said, “Well, in three hours I know that we can make a medicine pouch that you can wear around your neck,” and that those individuals will be able to have that, whether they want to carry their [inaudible 00:35:21] in there or a bear root, anything like that. And we can do that. And they’re like, “Oh, perfect.”

So I’ll work with those organizations on what they want to work on. And I’m talking about public health departments. I’ve gone into schools, I’ve gone into community organizations and taught those classes. And then I also have my own clothing line on www.RoundLakeTraditions.com, and that’s a lot of my manufactured stuff. I talked a little bit about that earlier, but when I say manufactured, it’s not my applique handmade stuff. It’s t-shirts that I’ve designed up myself and also printed myself. And then I’ve lately just been picking up vending at powwows and other events, and I just started that in November. And now it’s getting to the point where I’m getting invitations where people are calling me, contacting me to come in and be a vendor at their event. So now that spring is here, I’ve just been going through my list today.

So I have a large list of vendor opportunities coming up, and that’s going to lead through the summer too. So I’m excited about that. And then I also have, where I take in personal orders, I’ve kind of slowed down on that a little bit of taking in orders where I was making full regalia for dance regalia, things like that. So I’m not open to orders, but I guess there’s like a handful, I don’t want to say like VIP, but important people in communities and important people in my life that’ll come to me and say, “Hey, can we do something?”

Since they already have established themselves, I guess with Round Lake Traditions, I’ll work with them. Some of the stuff that you see that I’m putting out is saying that as an order, it’s because they’ve been a long times standing already Round Lake Traditions customer. So that’s the stuff that you’re seeing going out on my social media pages that are handmade. It’s going out to them.

I’ll raise some money for my children because I have three kids that are royalty. My youngest daughter who is six years old, she is Little Miss Fond du Lac. My son is 11, turning 12 here, and he is a Fond du Lac brave, I’ll say like junior Fond du Lac brave. And then I have a 13 year old daughter who’s the Senior Fond du Lac Princess. So we travel around to a lot of powwows and I’ll make some handmade velvet vests and I’ll raffle those off and I’ll use those funds for that raffle too as part of their travel funds. So those are my main income streams. And then I still do some law enforcement training, but I don’t do that through Round Lake Traditions. I just do that through Chi Ma’iingan.

Leah Lemm:

Well that’s like what, six, seven income streams? That’s not a light task.

Chi Ma’iingan:

Yeah, to try to manage those daily.

Leah Lemm:

What would be a normal day for you and what does it take to be prepared and ready to be an entrepreneur?

Chi Ma’iingan:

I guess I can’t speak for everybody, but for myself, first thing you need to address is your own health. In the past I didn’t concentrate so much on that. And also with my work, I do a lot of sedentary work where I’m sitting down a lot. So when I wake up in the morning, it’s always, whether I exercise or I go to the weight room, I make sure that I work out at least a couple hours before I actually start my day.

So I’ll wake up and work out and I jump on, whether it’s my iPad or computer, I’ll go through emails, see what I have for orders from the website come in. And if I have time, maybe I’ll prepare a couple of those orders and send those out. But I usually save those for after dinner. After I’m done with checking those real quick, I’ll go to work out in my studio and then I’ll work out in my studio if I have a project going on.

And if I’m not in my studio, I’m either in the print shop, pressing clothes or getting ready for an event, or maybe somebody has an order come in and I’ll get those out. So I have a normal workday, that’s my normal workday from 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM or 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM while the kids are in school. I always make sure that when everybody’s home getting done with work or my wife’s coming home from work or she’s finished, kids are coming home from school, we spend some time together with them. We have dinner. And then after dinner, it’s almost like back to work for me again. But I’m inside. So I’m present, present with my family, but I might be on my computer printing off labels or else weighing orders that are going out, getting those ready for tomorrow so that I can get those sent out.

And I guess that’s a typical day for me. And then I make sure that I don’t have any other unfinished business with emails or make sure that I get everything in order for the next day so that I can just wake up and do those again real quick. A lot of people are asking for bios and headshots. It’s almost like a given. So if people ask me to come in and do some community work or come in and run a class, soon as I answer those emails, “Yes, I’ll do this, do that,” and automatically in the email I attach my bio and I’ll attach my some sort of headshot for them and send that off even if they don’t ask for it, because I know at some point they’re going to be asking. Or if they don’t, they’ll be like, “Hey, I didn’t think we needed this, but actually this is good idea. Maybe we can make something up now.”

That’s a typical day for me. It’s important to maintain that focus day in and day out. And then I make sure that if we have doctor’s appointments or things like that for the children, that being in this line of work, I look like, okay, I can spare a few hours or we can do this today and just change up my schedule. And the beauty of that is, let’s say I have a deadline that I have to make, making clothing or something like that. I can work at night if I needed to. So that’s the beauty of working at home too. And having your own studio at your house or having your own print shop at your house, I don’t have to go to four walls someplace else. That’s what I enjoy about this too.

Leah Lemm:

If you had to give some advice to up and coming entrepreneurs who wanted to dive in head first and they have support from their friends and family, is there any advice that you’d give or anything you’d ask that the entrepreneur look inside themselves and see and find in order to best set themselves up for success?

Chi Ma’iingan:

I think the main one that you need to have as patience, you brought it up of diving head first and going into this. Some of us, when we dive in head first, feet first, whatever it is, we want that success right away, to have that success. And it doesn’t happen overnight. Sometimes it doesn’t happen right away. I’ve talked about it now. I’m on four or five business models down the road for myself, and things are changing for myself, changing in the world. And so you need to have that patience to weather those, I don’t want to say storms, but to just weather those changes and know that if you need to evolve with those, evolve with those, don’t be just stuck on one model the whole time and say, “I can make this work. I can make this work, I can make this work.” Because sometimes you can, but also to have that patience to make sure that you are going to be able to grow yourself.

Well, take social media for instance. Sometimes you put it out there, put your business on social media, whether it’s Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and you get it out there and you start out with only 200, 300 followers. You just keep at it, keep grinding at that same thing to grow your social media presence. You just stick with your current model that you’re using. And at some point who knows what that one point’s going to be. But at some point it’s going to flip and change for you, and it’s all going to start taking off. And next thing you’re going to see that you’re at 1,000 followers, you’re at 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 followers. Next thing you know, you reach 10,000, and you’re going to get there.

It’s the same thing with your website. It’s not going to be something that’s going to be a one night sensation. You just need to be consistent, working on that every single day. I guess in a sense, you got to have that patience, but also that dedication to keep moving forward and don’t let the slowness, or let’s say you’re not taking off, don’t let that get you down so much. You need to have thick skin. You need to have thick skin because some of us, some people can get hurt. Or let’s say you create a piece that you just spent four or five days working on eight hours a day and somebody looks at it and you just show it to that one person and they’re like, “I don’t see it. I don’t see what you got out of this.” And then you only showed it that one person that one day, and that starts tugging at you.

You’re like, “What? I can’t believe you didn’t like that. I put 20 hours into this and they don’t like it.” But then you go off and you show it off to other people, 20, 30 different other people, and they give you rave reviews for that. So don’t let that one person get you down or drag you down or bring your spirit down. I talked a lot about feeding your spirit, but also at the same time, make sure that you surround yourself with those right people that do that, feed your spirit for you. Not everybody’s going to have the same view or the same vision that you have. And I think that’s where you need to have a little bit of a thick skin in this business, but also maintain that patience and be consistent.

Leah Lemm:

Were there times when you had to grow a thick skin?

Chi Ma’iingan:

Absolutely. There are times I’ve had to grow a thick skin. I’ve created a few ribbon skirts where I’ve done them and I thought, “They look great.” I show them off to other people and we’re like, “I’m not feeling it.” I’m like, “Oh, no,” and I guess that’s kind of where I tried to move a little bit towards more contemporary work. If I went to, did a craft show or something and I had that ribbon skirt on my shelf three or four different places and it didn’t sell, or I had a vest that wouldn’t sell, I just have to have a thick skin and say, “Okay, maybe that’s not working, and I just have got to go back to the drawing board,” and you know that I’ve only wasted, I guess a little bit of time on something like that and to know that, hey, I can just recreate something and go back to it and go from there. And that’s what I’ve done.

And then there’s been times where people have called me up to do some community work or do some work with their organizations and will say they want to do this work on a certain project. They’ll say they want to do Lakota style moccasins. And I say, “I’ll only do pucker toe style moccasins.”

“Well, we want to hire you to come in and do Lakota style.” I’m like, “I don’t do Lakota style.” And they’re like, “Well, I’m sorry. I’m going to have to go someplace else then.” And you think, “Oh, I just lost a job.” I know that Lakota style moccasins are easy to make. It’s something that I could do, but I want to stay true to my heritage of where I come from, and that’s Ojibwe country. I’ll think about it for a minute and be like, “No, that wasn’t for me,” so I wouldn’t take the work like that.

A lot of that has happened in the past too, where people have asked me to design them a vest and I would design them a vest and send it back and they’re like, “Nope, that’s not what I’m looking for. It’s not.” And I’ll be like, “Okay, we can’t come the terms on it, then maybe you can find somebody else who can make this for you.” I’ve done that before too, and it’s no fault on my part or the person’s part too, and I just want them to have a legacy piece that they’re going to be proud of and something that they’re going to own. If I can’t achieve that, it’s not going to be a legacy piece for them.

So if I can’t achieve it, I’ll just tell them, “Maybe this is not something, that a project you and I can work on,” and go from there. And that’s where you need to have a little bit of a thick skin. But also at the same time, you need to have thick skin to, I guess, stay true to your own art. And I think that’s important too.

Leah Lemm:

It is so important to outline, to make sure we know our values and our boundaries as entrepreneurs and you and I, Marianne, I think we can safely chime in about that as entrepreneurs ourselves.

Marianne Combs:

Absolutely. I think it’s so important to know sort of your own vision statement. What am I doing and why? And to fuel your work and make sure that you’re grounded in the right place and that the work you’re being offered matches up with the work that you want to do. That’s so important. And if you want to be happy in doing your work, at least. I know there are moments when people feel that they have to compromise in order to survive, but if you can find that alignment between your purpose and your work, that’s the golden place to be.

Leah Lemm:

Yeah, and having the organizations you work with understand that is key as well. So here’s Chi Ma’iingan talking about that.

Chi Ma’iingan:

Let’s talk about rattles. If somebody hired me to do a rattle, come in and make a rattle with parfleche and sand or beads, we got to form that rattle, over that time of teaching that class, I’ll tell them, “Not only are you going to be able to learn how to make this rattle, but you’re going to learn the cultural teachings behind that rattle and the importance of that, of having a rattle for your children, of growing up as a growing mother or father. So you’re going to get those teachings out of that.”

So I make sure that to let people know that, “Hey, there’s a lot of cultural content within my classes,” and I’ll talk about where those teachings come from and where I’ve gained them from and why it’s so important to have those teachings. To just have a rattle sitting on a shelf or something like that, we can all say that we all have a rattle, but where’s that rattle come from? Why do we have that rattle?

Where’s that sound, that shh, shh, shh, come from? Why do we have it? And I’ll talk about that. I’ll let them know that, “Hey, these are the teachings you’re going to get. And you’re not just hiring me to teach a simple class. You’re hiring me to teach something that has cultural knowledge,” and that’s what I’m bringing with when I do that. If it’s not something they’re looking for, it’s something they’re going to get. And maybe they don’t know it sometimes.

That’s where building that bridge with them, they’re like, “Chi Ma’iingan was great. Let’s invite him back.” More times than not, I’ve had that a lot where people would hire me to do something for them, and they’re like, “Your class was phenomenal, so we’re going to ask you to come back and do this or do that.” And I was like, “Let’s pick out some dates and we’ll set them down and get them down right now.” That’s how it would grow. Majority of my classes that I do now are return customers or else they’ve talked to an organization and they’ll say, “Hey, so-and-so has recommended you to do this class, and we would love for you to come in and teach,” and I would.

Leah Lemm:

So that understanding that this isn’t a superficial process of learning something that they’re checking off a box for or something trendy or something like that, but instead with real true meaning behind it and being open to that and understanding that it is deeper than the end product that can sit on a shelf. Is there anything else you’d like to add to that?

Chi Ma’iingan:

When I was growing up, working with my grandmother and my grandfather, my grandmother was one of the more diligent ones when she was working with the beads and going through. She would talk about her bead work. When we get our floral designs, we have springtime, middle of summer, fall. So a lot of her floral designs, if she was working only in springtime theme, she only put springtime flowers or buds and her floral work. Dead of summer, everything’s blooming then, everything’s full bloom. So she wouldn’t have no small buds or anything like that. And then her flowers were full bloom at that time. And then fall time coming, her leaves were different colors and her floral work and to pay attention to those details.

But also she would tell me, “If you’re having bad feelings or bad thoughts during those days and you’re down, your spirit’s not fed.” I’m not working on this because my spirit that I’m feeling is going into my work. She had taught me that your feelings go into your work. So to make sure that everything that you’re doing, make sure that you have good thoughts and do it. But also, she would teach me. We’ll go to that rattle and she would tell me where that rattle come from, and after we’re done or throughout time, she would say, “What you’re learning here, it’s not yours. It’s not mine either. It was it given to me by my grandparents. I’ll pass it down to you. You pass it on, make sure that you pass it on to someone else so that’s how we continue the cycle of keeping our tradition and culture alive.”

So that is why I’m more receptive or more open to going in and teaching the classes versus actually doing stuff, just working in my studio and kicking stuff out. It’s those community engagements are the ones that I enjoy the most because I know that I’m passing my knowledge on, passing on the knowledge or the teachings that I’ve received so that our heritage and our lifestyle and our culture can thrive and live on. That’s the true beauty that I enjoy from Round Lake Traditions.

Leah Lemm:

I just love how Chi Ma’iingan is an entrepreneur, an artist, and really celebrating culture through that. Like he said, keeping our tradition and our culture alive, and what an honor to be able to bring that to the community and pass on knowledge and just be an addition to the artistic landscape that we live in northern Minnesota and beyond.

Marianne Combs:

Yeah, and thank you so much for bringing these conversations with Khayman and Chi Ma’iingan to us so that we can learn from their wisdom and their experiences. We’re talking about entrepreneurship in the arts, but really this goes so beyond that. Entrepreneurship of any kind can learn from these experiences in terms of knowing your values, what you want to stand for, the work you want to do, who you want to do it with. And beyond entrepreneurship, it’s about good relationships and being centered in your values as you go about building those relationships. Leah, I’m curious, what are the ideas that stick with you coming away from this?

Leah Lemm:

The main idea that I identify with from both Khayman and Chi Ma’iingan is this idea of patience in your work. Boy, do we want to be making things going from 0 to 100 overnight. I know I do. And I can’t put words in your mouth, Marianne.

Marianne Combs:

Oh, you can.

Leah Lemm:

But it’s just, it’s this desire to be productive immediately and have people hear you, see you, appreciate your work immediately, but really being patient and looking at your work long term, looking at it as an arc in your life, it’s a much better approach that allows for this slow burn, this sustainable growth.

Marianne Combs:

Yes, sustainability and the slow pace. I think that, definitely two very important ideas. Well, this actually brings our latest round of conversations to a close. This is the fifth and this series looking at indigenous creativity, culture bearing, and artists working on the land outside of urban areas. And I just think been such a fascinating series of conversations. We’ve gone in depth for basically five hours, and yet we have just scratched the surface of the conversations there are to have. Leah, thank you so much for being my co-host on this journey. I’ve so enjoyed our conversations and learning through your eyes has been a real privilege.

Leah Lemm:

You’re welcome, Marianne, and I appreciate being able to be on this journey with you. I appreciate you so much.

Marianne Combs:

You’ve been listening to Filling the Well. I’m Marianne Combs.

Leah Lemm:

And I’m Leah Lemm. Thank you for joining our conversations.

Marianne Combs:

This podcast was produced and edited by Emily Goldberg and mixed by Eric and Amanda Romani with original music by Dameun Strange.

Leah Lemm:

Filling The Well is a podcast of Arts Midwest, amplifying the power of Midwestern creativity. Find out more at ArtsMidwest.org.